General Strategy Guide : [4.5] The Complete 5v5 Tierlist

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Warhawk and skaarf should be S-tier for mid imo they are so oppressive in lane, warhawk's passive allows him to completely outrade every other midlaner due to it's massive range and relatively high damage. And with skaarf's recent A buff your average t10 player will land 80% of their A and get free damage on you. But overall your midlane tier list is decent. The biggest problem I have would be your top tier list. Currently in t10 Joule, blackfeather and Leo are the highest priority picks outside of miho which is basically permabanned. Joule is so tanky this patch and completely outrades basically everyone in lane, her only weakness being that she runs out of energy quickly. Leo is like Joule but squishier and with less energy restraints. Blackfeather poke trading isn't as good as the other two but he arguably has the strongest all in. By poking down with his B and then diving with his A and autoing you can easily get kills on the enemy laner. All three of these laners also scale well into the late game so you can potentially carry from top lane. With a duo or a bigger party, utility tank top laners like ardan Cath grumpjaw or Grace become extremely strong picks. Tanks in vg have very good early damage, which can transition into powerful cc for late game like pulseweave or their abilities. All this is coming from a t10 SEA player.

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Hey man,

Thank you for your comment! Tbh I haven’t played much at all this season due to exams coming up, so this guide will be slightly outdated until I return to the game and play more often, hence being missing and and being rock bottom still.

I found it kind of surprising that you would say that was the placement you had the most issue with. hasn’t seen any play apart from that one patch where they reworked her to a slow instead of knock back, after which they nerfed her into the ground. Perhaps her buffs make her playable again? Once again, I haven’t played much this season, so I have no idea how the game is going (currently just decaying rank from what was originally SA Silver).

~Pasu

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I'm just going to be focusing on top lane because that's what I mainly play in t10. I am also going to be assuming 5v5 partied matches, because the dynamics of soloq are so different from scrims.

Top lane will be mostly playing 1v2 for laning phase. The first gank will usually come from the enemy jungler's 2nd level, after clearing buff and a camp. This means that before you hit level 2, there will be a level 2 jungler, and a level 1 laner in your lane. Therefore, any heroes who get demolished in this scenario are not viable top laners. This includes Gwen and Caine, making them unviable in the top lane. On the other hand, heroes with either good trading, waveclear, or sustain level 1 are great for top lane. Personally, I feel the S-tier top laners are Grumpjaw, Lyra, Grace, and Joule. Grumpjaw is especially good, because with a banner, you can clear the healer without missing any lane creeps, allowing you to hit level 2 at the same time as the jungler, giving you a reliable escape and initation tool.

A-tier heroes are Leo, Reza, Ylva, and Blackfeather

B-tier heroes are Kensei, Lance, Baptiste and San Feng

C-tier heroes are Idris, Adagio, and Samuel

I can't really speak for other lanes because I probably can't play them at a t10 standard, but just from what I see, the best midlaners are Skaarf, Loralai, Vox, and Samuel by proxy. Varya is never played.

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Hey man,

Thanks for your detailed comment!

First of all, the world of soloq is literally the opposite of 5v5 parties. 1) You don't get flamed by your teammates for making a tiny mistake. 2) You won't be forced into a role you're not familiar with, which means that you can play at your best capacity. 3) As a laner you won't have to deal with your jungler stealing your farm (which happens wayyyy too often in higher tiers, the other day I tried to freeze the lane against , only for the clown in jungle to un-freeze it). While you are correct in saying that is no longer viable in top due to his nerfs, I would argue that is viable in top simply because she has such a strong escape tool with in addition to being ranged, meaning that starting with and allows two of the most important traits of a top laner: sustain and immense trading potential due to being ranged.

The thing about is that he simply doesn't feel strong at any point of the game as he can just get outraded with little, if any trading ability due to not coming up until level 6. While yes, eating the support during a teamfight is a massive plus in teamfights, is it really going to finish before they pop out again?

I generally agree with your tierlist apart from S-Tier. and are rarely, if ever seen as top, while I just explained why I dislike . Even though I am a main, I still don't find her stronger than either or , at least in soloq.

As for mid, I actually see a lot. Maybe different regions? , and are rarely picked either. Also, I was rather surprised that doesn't see much play in t10, her damage potential is unrivalled if played right.

~Pasu

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Im just going to put it down to rank differences, no offense but t7/8 is a joke where nobody knows how to lane and people have just learned how to last hit

Grump is the best trader in the game so idk what youre on

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Adding onto this, if you go by soloqueue no level 2 jungle rotation grump is even more insane because he will hit level 2 a full 2 minions before the enemy botlaner. Every time the enemy bot lane attempts a last hit is a free charge and 3-4 autos fro grump which is close to 300-400 damage.

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None taken. I would go as far as to say some people don’t even know how to last hit yet, judging by the mid laners I play with as support. As for Grumpjaw, I think you misread what I meant, so let me explain. He can’t do anything once he pushes the enemy into the turret. No poke (think BF), no assassination (think ). Sure you can continue to hit the turret, setting yourself up for an easy tank. If they freeze lane on you, you won’t be able to do “300-400 damage” to them unless they decide to stand still and fight you. Once you reach late game and you’re not significantly ahead, you can’t do much in teamfights either. Plus, if you think is so great, how about you highlight his advantages and disadvantages for me?

~Pasu

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Grump takea tower. Enemy cant freeze because grump clears lane faster than most laners. Enemy has to comitt 2 heroes to your lane to prevent a 4 min tower loss. If enemy does comitt 2 people to your lane your other lanes snowball with the 4v3. If they dont, you take enemy tower, shove into their t2 and force rotations to snowball other lanes, or take t2 and allow your team to easily control the top portion enemy jungle.

True, the enemy will not stand still and fight grumpjaw. What they will do is stand still when they go to last hit. That is the opportunity at first wave. You will be level 2 from the healer and 2 cs. You hide in a bush. When they go to last hit you can easily dash in with your b, a past them and apply the slow. They either run away from you, slowed, towards your creeps, or run through you towarss their tower. Either way they take 300-400 damage, at level 2.

I see you keep refrencing your peak SA silver, so im going to rain on your parade and tell you that SA silver is the rank where people are trash, but think theyre good because they sorta kinda are figuering out the game. You are thinking too linerally with a heavy bias towards your favorite heroes. Varya mid and gwen top gets you dodged in t10, and if you admit that you havent played on the new patch much, you should avoid making guides about the new patch. The pickban heroes in t10 are currently leo, catherine, miho, skaarf, joule, and warhawk. I have no idea how you managed to rate 3 of these heroes anywhere below high A-tier.

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Adding onto this if you still think SA silver is some incrrdible accomplishment which makes you knowledgable about the game you can look up uncalibrated to t10 smurfs. There are people who dont drop a game until at least high t9. I'm personally not good enough to do that, but I'm confident that i could get an account to t8 silver in less than 25 ranked games, literally a weeks worth of gameplay

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Please let me rain on your parade then my good sir. Being in a higher tier and pointing that out does nothing but make you out as a conceited person who cares all about rank. Is there any solid evidence to say that T8 is trash? No. Please take your delusional "partied matches" elsewhere because this is, if you haven't noticed, a guide for soloq.

Furthermore, I point out many times in my guide that this is based SOLELY upon my opinion and no one else's. Therefore, there will be a certain degree of bias upon each hero. If you can't read English properly, I know a few good tutors which could help you on your reading skills. I have no idea how you missed ALL of those warnings highlighted in RED. Maybe your head was just too big from getting to t10 to see them.

~Pasu

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I'm fine with some bias. Placing S-tiers into C and C-tiers into S is not bias, it is dunning kruger.

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And who made your tierlist? You did. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and just because you are t10 does not mean you are more correct than I am. How about you stop wasting your time commenting pointlessly on my guide and go and make one yourself, Mr.T10?

~Pasu

P.S. Where did I EVER state that getting to t8 was some incredible (that's how it's spelt btw) accomplishment? Is your head ACTUALLY that big that you're starting to see stuff that isn't there?

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I have a tier list in my first comment

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Grumpjaw's perk makes him naturally tanky, allowing him to cs without fear early on when he builds book or even when he doesn't. An A+B combo early on easily wins you early game all ins delaying your opposing laners trade. Late game you provide plenty of utility if you get pulseweave and crucible

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it said that the bot laner "only comes online later in the game" what the heck does that mean?

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Hey man,

Thanks for your comment! That term means most, but not all bot laners only become strong later on in the game. In the early game, most of them, such as or are incredibly weak and extremely susceptible to being ganked. "Coming online later in the game" pretty much means that they only do well later on in the game, meaning that they will be harrassed a lot early game.

~Pasu

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i think warhawk shud be higher on the list , heres my argument. (btw i have been playing warhawk since he came out so u can trust me on some of this)
1.the damage and range from warhhawks basic attack can outrange and easly poke most midlaners (#ehem ,ehem vox,ehem)you dont have to hit your A but his perk will hit 80% of the time ,do it constanly and the enemy would be at 50% health without you knowing
2. his A dmg scales almost the same as celeste and his perk can make up for any lost dmg
3. his B ,some people dont like it , but it has the same delay as celeste's B
i plaeyd him a lot and this ability has so much utility in teamfights and has saved me way to many times it just needs a while to get used to
4.his B+A combo does alot of burst + (basic attack perk) my warhawk playstyle revolve around this and if an enemy chase you just reactivate B at your feet and A away
(this gives him more mobility?survivability than celeste

now im not saying warhawk is an op/realy good carry, it's just that he is extremly dificult to play and someone that is good enough with him can be awesum
he has diferent "utility" in teamfights in earky game his perk can harras lower ranged carry ,on late game his B+A burst can cripple enemies

weighing with other mid laners his damage slightly less than that of celeste but makes it up with high utility and burst ,pair him up with an assasin and you're set

note= im comparing him to other A tier laners(not s tier)
sowwy for any other grammatical errors dat mae or may not be intentional

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Hey man,

Thank you for your detailed comment! While yes, the buffs made playable, but A-Tier? Hmmm... I'll try to answer your points.

1. As I mentioned in the guide, CP is the way to go mid lane, so your basic attacks won't be doing much damage. Yes, early game the poke does do a bit of damage, but the rocket does way more and if the enemy knows what they're doing, they will stand behind a minion to block it.

2. 's is one of the best zoning tools in the game simply because you can just reactivate the star if an enemy goes near it and 's A just doesn't do the job as well. Once again, his perk does no damage as CP, so I don't think it would make up the missing damage that either or can deal.

3. His is incredibly useless when he gets ganked. Unlike , it won't activate instantly, meaning that if rushes at you from the bush, you can't stun him and run off. However in that situation you can just away, so yes, does at least have more mobility than or .

4. Simply put, his just takes too long to prime before it goes off, giving the enemies a large window of opportunity to avoid it.

While yes, his mobility is decent but as a mid laner you simply cannot be lacking in damage, as you are one of the late game carries. This is the main reason sits so low in the tierlist. All of the A-Tier and above mid laners, namely , , , and deal significant damage late game, but I just don't see on the same level. Also, I noticed that in your four points you never even mentioned his . If the ult of a hero isn't even worth mentioning when you talk about his strong points, there's something wrong with the hero.

Either way, I respect your view and after considering for a while, I decided to move him up to the top of C-Tier, but he still feels like an inferior to me as CP.

~Pasu

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skaarf and warhawk are S tier, there buffs make them amazing

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Hey man,

Thanks for your reply! is an incredibly immobile hero with no CC nor any mobility, which completely excludes him from S-Tier. A player with some game knowledge would know to stand behind minions so that even if the fireball does hit them, it does minimum damage, which is why I still think he is unplayable.

On the matter of , the buffs to him did quite a bit for his WP path, but for his CP path? The only buffs that are relevant are that of and , which merely make him playable and certainly not S-Tier.

Compare those to to in S-Tier, who just does everything well at the moment and you'll see why those two are in C-Tier.

[4.5] The Complete 5v5 Tierlist by Pasu

[4.5] The Complete 5v5 Tierlist

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[4.5] The Complete 5v5 Tierlist by Pasu

[4.5] The Complete 5v5 Tierlist

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